jasred
staff puppet account
Posts: 29
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Post by jasred on Aug 19, 2013 16:05:43 GMT -5
Straight up, what's the best when maxed?
Shield-use has been getting a lot of praise on these forums, but the rate at which it levels up would suggest that it's not the best style that it's being made out to be. I've had multiple character who seemed to do just as good with Master Shield-use as they did with apprentice and journeyman of the other two. Is this just perception and luck and bad anecdote?
Also what does increased skill level in Dual-wield and Two-handed give you? More accuracy just like weapons skills?
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Post by topkekm8s on Aug 19, 2013 16:28:51 GMT -5
I think it depends on what you want to accomplish. However,
I'd love to hear more about two-handed and its coded aspects from our gurus.
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Post by jcarter on Aug 19, 2013 16:40:12 GMT -5
There's a lot of worrying about what happens at max level and who's the top at max level going on in these boards. Honestly, top dog at max level is the last thing you should be worried about. Very, very few characters will ever see the top level of combat skills. Realistically you should be more worried about mid game (after 5 days minimum) who has a stronger lead because a lot of your do-or-die moments are going to be around then. By the time you're around long enough to be maxxed, there's a good chance players will be aware of your existence and probably won't mess with you too much. If your skills aren't up to snuff at max, you should be able to cover your weaknesses by either rolling around with your own group of friends, better equipment, poisons, or anything else that can give you the extra edge.
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Post by mekillot on Aug 19, 2013 17:22:29 GMT -5
From my experience, the best style depends on who or what your fighting, relative to your stats. That is, if your fighting styles are all equally skilled.
As a new character, shield-use goes up far, far quicker. It is the best early on. It's the only one that can get to the point where it matters in only a couple days played.
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jasred
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Posts: 29
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Post by jasred on Aug 19, 2013 17:29:36 GMT -5
There's a lot of worrying about what happens at max level and who's the top at max level going on in these boards. Honestly, top dog at max level is the last thing you should be worried about. Very, very few characters will ever see the top level of combat skills. Realistically you should be more worried about mid game (after 5 days minimum) who has a stronger lead because a lot of your do-or-die moments are going to be around then. By the time you're around long enough to be maxxed, there's a good chance players will be aware of your existence and probably won't mess with you too much. If your skills aren't up to snuff at max, you should be able to cover your weaknesses by either rolling around with your own group of friends, better equipment, poisons, or anything else that can give you the extra edge. This is a lot of words for an nearly useless comment. I'm just wondering who's going to win. Three warriors, all spent the same amount of time training. One with a shield, one with two weapons, one two-handing one weapon. Is the difference negligible? Is it based on the characters stats? Should a strong character go with dual-wielding, a weak character go with e-two? Should you use Tw-handed vs people with shields, or does dual-wield work better? Those sorts of things.
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Post by mekillot on Aug 19, 2013 18:51:40 GMT -5
Out of three warriors... Same stats? What stats? Same time trained? How long? What armor? Sparring weapons or live weapons? What race?
Outcomes in the fights would be different just on these factors.
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Post by blasphemy on Aug 19, 2013 20:19:03 GMT -5
AFAIK etwo increases damage from your strength as well as accuracy. Dual-Wielding gives you another attack dealing weapon damage (I don't believe strength is applied to the off-hand, but I'm not certain) Shield use gives you more defense in the form of blocking.
Think of Etwo as the most offensive option, Shield as the most defensive, and dual-wield as the middle ground.
In the end, if you have three completely equal characters excepting these three skills, it would turn down to a fight with the random number generator. If Etwo gets in several blows that aren't blocked or parried, he'll win. If dual-wield parries more often than not he'll win. If shield blocks a significant number of blows, he'll win.
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Post by lulz on Aug 19, 2013 21:15:26 GMT -5
Do not dual wield.
Shields and etwo give your character defensive bonuses that dual wielding lacks.
Personally, I always preferred etwoing a spear on rangers, because I'm boss like that.
Having advanced (i.e. max) parry while wielding a spear two handed = +parry/+damage
Etwo is seriously, seriously powerful.
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Post by lulz on Aug 19, 2013 21:17:24 GMT -5
AFAIK etwo increases damage from your strength as well as accuracy. In the end, if you have three completely equal characters excepting these three skills, it would turn down to a fight with the random number generator. If Etwo gets in several blows that aren't blocked or parried, he'll win. If dual-wield parries more often than not he'll win. If shield blocks a significant number of blows, he'll win. I find your name quite apt for this little gem you gave us. Dual wielding, even with max parry, will lose out against an individual with max shield use. Again, I reiterate: do not dual wield if you've maxed parry and have at least journeyman weapon skill levels. There's literally no point.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2013 22:50:23 GMT -5
I disagree.
Dual Wield is best for causing damage. Etwo is only good for dwarves or people with immense strength since its benefit is in extra accuracy/damage due to strength bonus to etwo. But even great strength would not allow an Etwo match the damage of dual wield. But that's ... on a later stage of a characters life.
On lower skills, etwo might be useful more since you wont miss and hit harder. On higher skills, you dont miss anyway, unless shield blocked/parried. And two blows will outdamage, a single strong one.
An assassin 'should' dual wield during backstab, because the offhand gets a backstabbing bonus as well. A secondary backstab if you will.
So on high skill levels. Dual wield outdamages etwo. Etwo is also more effective against shield use, since you basically have two chances to score an already pretty low threshold to get past the shield. Etwo does have penetration bonus, but it's only useful with greaaat strength, and on lower/middle skill rates.
It might be smarter to etwo though, to maximize the odds of penetration and poisoning, if you mean to poison. Let's say with heramide. Its very wise to etwo if you mean to peraine someone, because if you dual wield, you might end up having your first hit paralyze someone and second hit break the paralyze.
If you're fighting a vivaduan, you're never going to hurt him with etwo.
There is no bonus to defense that etwo gets that duel wield does not. Both duel wield 'and' etwo, offers bonus to parrying.
Shield Use generally trumps etwo and dual wield, if your main goal is surviving, or giving time to do a maneuver like a whole bunch of kicks. It's often risky to do disarms since they can get reversed. It's almost suicidal to do bashes. But reversing Kicks is much harder, your opponent must be much stronger then you are to reverse a kick. So I've seen plenty of warriors who tank with shield use and just kick the guy to death. Very annoying actually.
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Post by lulz on Aug 19, 2013 23:00:11 GMT -5
I disagree. Dual Wield is best for causing damage. Etwo is only good for dwarves or people with immense strength since its benefit is in extra accuracy/damage due to strength bonus to etwo. But even great strength would not allow an Etwo match the damage of dual wield. But that's ... on a later stage of a characters life. On lower skills, etwo might be useful more since you wont miss and hit harder. On higher skills, you dont miss anyway, unless shield blocked/parried. And two blows will outdamage, a single strong one. An assassin 'should' dual wield during backstab, because the offhand gets a backstabbing bonus as well. A secondary backstab if you will. So on high skill levels. Dual wield outdamages etwo. Etwo is also more effective against shield use, since you basically have two chances to score an already pretty low threshold to get past the shield. Etwo does have penetration bonus, but it's only useful with greaaat strength, and on lower/middle skill rates. It might be smarter to etwo though, to maximize the odds of penetration and poisoning, if you mean to poison. Let's say with heramide. Its very wise to etwo if you mean to peraine someone, because if you dual wield, you might end up having your first hit paralyze someone and second hit break the paralyze. If you're fighting a vivaduan, you're never going to hurt him with etwo. There is no bonus to defense that etwo gets that duel wield does not. Both duel wield 'and' etwo, offers bonus to parrying. Shield Use generally trumps etwo and dual wield, if your main goal is surviving, or giving time to do a maneuver like a whole bunch of kicks. It's often risky to do disarms since they can get reversed. It's almost suicidal to do bashes. But reversing Kicks is much harder, your opponent must be much stronger then you are to reverse a kick. So I've seen plenty of warriors who tank with shield use and just kick the guy to death. Very annoying actually. You can disagree all you want, but you'd still be just as wrong. Etwo and shield use are superior fighting styles to dual wield because of the defensive boosts they receive. When it comes to two long lived characters battling it out, they are in what we refer to as a battle of attrition. In such instances, defense is KEY. Etwo is not only good for dwarves. That statement was absolutely fucking ridiculous. Assassins are great when dual wielding and backstabbing because the second blow slices through the victim's defense like butter. (Etwo and shield use are meant for rangers and warriors, why go there?) The rest of your post I refuse to address, because you're so full of shit I can't restrain myself from flaming your ass. Etwo offers better defense in that it boosts parry MORE than dual wield.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2013 23:09:33 GMT -5
And there you have it, Jasred One dude says one thing, the other says another. I guess you'll have to figure that bit out by experience yourself
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Post by lulz on Aug 19, 2013 23:16:20 GMT -5
Here, let's break this down and be specific:
Assassins should dual wield because their defense is shit and their offense is boss.
Warriors should use a shield after getting basic weapon skills all to journeyman unless they want to branch an advanced weapon skill and etwo that.
Rangers should etwo due to the parry boosts characters receive. More defense = longer life.
If you want to truly own, wield a certain warspear salarr sells (not the shitty one, the badass one). It's rather expensive (around 5k) and takes ex. good strength on a human to wield IIRC, but it's fucking WORTH IT. The stats on it are redoooooonkulous.
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Post by blasphemy on Aug 19, 2013 23:24:34 GMT -5
Etwo gives you a multiplicative bonus to your strength modifier. Dual wield gives you an extra attack.
The offensive option you take should take your strength into consideration.
The defense perspective depends on your strength as well as your weapons of choice. Shield-use is definitely the best 'defensive' option.
Chosing between etwo and Dual-wield depends on your strength, and if you want to sacrifice offensive capability one way or the other. For low strength characters, dual-wield is the way to go. High strength are better off etwoing for defense, if not already using a shield.
I hope that helps clarify my view a bit.
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delerak
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"When you want to fool the world, tell the truth." - Otto Von Bismarck
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Post by delerak on Aug 20, 2013 5:20:57 GMT -5
if you etwo and get disarmed... have fun. if you are dual wielding your likelyhood of instant death from not having any weapon at all in your hands is much lower.
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