kannot
Clueless newb
Posts: 126
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Post by kannot on May 4, 2019 17:41:53 GMT -5
I remember reading Brokkr post about how they factor in off/deff differences now, and that you cant raise them off animals or something?
Is that true?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2019 14:26:38 GMT -5
The gap between your off/def and your opponent's off/def comes into play when learning. Some animals have extremely high agility, but low off/def. Your learning by fighting them will be impaired significantly, if your own off/def is already a lot higher. At the same time, while sparring with someone whose off/def is greatly higher then yours. You will learn noticeably faster and easier. So you end up suffering a bunch of debilitating blows, where the spar lasts 2 hits and you're already below regenerating hp. But it still has benefits to you. Sometimes significant. As your own off/def and your sparring partner's off/def gradually even out, the skill gains diminish as well.
Having said that. Skill gain is still chance based on failures. So you will still learn from fighting animals. It's just you'll need to miss/be hit a 'lot' more to get lucky and roll that skill gain, compared to fighting an opponent with an actually high off/def.
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kannot
Clueless newb
Posts: 126
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Post by kannot on May 18, 2019 20:36:51 GMT -5
Is this for weapon skills too or just off/def?
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jkarr
GDB Superstar
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Post by jkarr on May 18, 2019 21:05:01 GMT -5
Is this for weapon skills too or just off/def? my $ says its for off/def gains and u can still get all ur other combat and weapon skill gains from dodges no matter their off def in comp to urs when they dodge u
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kannot
Clueless newb
Posts: 126
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Post by kannot on May 18, 2019 22:02:57 GMT -5
Wait that means if you're an indie you're going to be handicapped against clanned players yea? Your weapon skills will put a false cap on your off against non players and the Bynners would have been able to proc both their off def AND their weapon skills.
I guess that's realistic enough, dont like the balance of power though
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2019 22:39:34 GMT -5
Wait that means if you're an indie you're going to be handicapped against clanned players yea? Your weapon skills will put a false cap on your off against non players and the Bynners would have been able to proc both their off def AND their weapon skills. I guess that's realistic enough, dont like the balance of power though Yes it does. Add in that sponsored raider clans will at some points be strong enough to lock pcs out of necessary skill grinding areas. Namely, once you need spiders or a few other pcs, not much else will do. Everyone knows where the spiders are.
I think the indies will only have to avoid a few clanned pcs who rarely go out on rpts. Those "veteran" trainers cant skillmax their entire clans, so really we are talking about high skill pcs being more of a social privilege.
I dont like this balance of power either, but several other changes Brokkr and Ness have added support ClanMud. Namely, the shop inventories persisting through reboots.
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jkarr
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Post by jkarr on May 18, 2019 23:36:41 GMT -5
Wait that means if you're an indie you're going to be handicapped against clanned players yea? Your weapon skills will put a false cap on your off against non players and the Bynners would have been able to proc both their off def AND their weapon skills. either version of that would but an indie wouldnt be as retardedly hurt by it as they would if weapon and other combat skills were also affected by the off/def gain nerf it makes more sense and stops rewarding stupid but more convenient strategies that lets nonames singeplayer their way thru rodents to become better than the pcs that make a living training with skilled fighters
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kannot
Clueless newb
Posts: 126
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Post by kannot on May 18, 2019 23:38:54 GMT -5
When you say ClanMUD is that a way of throwing shade at the game being clan-centric? Just confused.
Also, I don't understand, how does the shop inventory thing support Clans more.
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jkarr
GDB Superstar
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Post by jkarr on May 19, 2019 0:04:49 GMT -5
Add in that sponsored raider clans will at some points be strong enough to lock pcs whose players might be too proud to let their chars give them anything but a chronic fightorflight response instead of paying them off or working a deal out of necessary skill grinding areas. ftfy
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2019 1:17:54 GMT -5
Add in that sponsored raider clans will at some points be strong enough to lock pcs whose players might be too proud to let their chars give them anything but a chronic fightorflight response instead of paying them off or working a deal out of necessary skill grinding areas. ftfy Give it a rest. I've lost enough pcs to raiders and the CW in particular to know better. Lots of raiders just want to win, and will use whatever mechanics they need to have their little moment of griefers delight.
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Post by lechuck on May 19, 2019 1:22:17 GMT -5
I haven't played since before they made that change where there's always some chance to dodge no matter what. If that has upset the system, I can't account for that. Prior to that, it was very black and white: if someone in your clan had really high defense, sparring was a fantastic way to raise skills. If noone did, which was usually the case once you got to journeyman weapon skills, sparring was nearly worthless and you would have been better served with the freedom to seek out what few NPCs in the world can still provide training at that point.
I don't think they ever changed what off/def actually does, but two years ago or something like that, they made it so that your offense needs to be within a certain range of the target's defense, and vice versa, in order to have a chance to increase off/def, weapon skills and two handed (but dual wield was apparently excempt). Also, some of the new classes start with higher offense than the old guilds did. I know at least enforcer starts higher than warrior did, and raider probably has more than ranger did. They also now start at apprentice weapon skills instead of novice.
I was unable to ever surpass journeyman weapons on enforcer. Tried for ages and it just didn't happen. Right out of the gate, I could barely get a miss off anything you can realistically go and fight. By the time I'd trained up parry and defense to the point where I could take on things like gith, tarantulas and mantis, those could no longer dodge me. Well, I could eke out maybe one miss per three tarantulas, but at that point I wasn't even sure I could still gain from them anyway even when I did occasionally miss. I tried joining the Byn, but nobody there could dodge me either and the clan was pretty cucked at the time so I gave up on that as well.
On the other hand, I've raised weapons to advanced on miscreants with laughable ease using basic 'rinth NPCs and things like that. Things my enforcers and raiders couldn't even hope to miss at low journeyman. Offense goes up at a rate that depends on how close your class is to "heavy combat," and it just seems that the heavies are at serious risk of getting screwed over by their own offense. You can only bypass this problem if you have someone with really high defense to spar with, and you usually don't. There usually aren't any such characters in the clans that spar.
Now that there's always a chance to miss, things may be better or they may not. Depends how lenient the off vs def calculations are; if you're at the point where something can no longer dodge you the normal way, will the "always a small chance" type of dodge even help or will your offense already be too high against their defense to qualify for gains anyway? Couldn't say, but I suspect this feature probably doesn't do much to solve the problem. To really make meaningful progress, you have to miss 5+ times per fight.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2019 1:33:34 GMT -5
When you say ClanMUD is that a way of throwing shade at the game being clan-centric? Just confused. Also, I don't understand, how does the shop inventory thing support Clans more. Yes. We were talking about indeps. I made a point about clan focused features as contrast.
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jkarr
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Post by jkarr on May 19, 2019 2:39:45 GMT -5
Give it a rest. I've lost enough pcs to raiders and the CW in particular to know better. Lots of raiders just want to win, and will use whatever mechanics they need to have their little moment of griefers delight. never had a prob with raiders whenever i made a pt of letting them know id rather pay than act like a retard and run or attack and concluding that ppl will be 'locked out' of a good indie grinding area when raiders are strong enough is the type of shit said by someone who assumes everyone else defaults to the same basic fightorflight fuckboy char response when being held up in the wastes considering all the good things ppl have said abt the cw and their rp on this board tall while being a monitored player clan that correct me if im wrong is the only playerclan good enough to get a staff led role call to continue it on after the leader was gone id say the only reason ud be gated out of those areas is because ud rather die than have any of ur chars rp anything remotely resembling submission to raiders
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Post by lechuck on May 19, 2019 4:12:44 GMT -5
Raiders are a mixed bag. I've had some that were satisfied if I dropped my pack when told to and I've had some that just walked into the room and attacked me right away. You can't really use anecdotes as an argument here because one player can be a bro who's in it for the story and the next can be a griefing piece of shit who gets a hardon whenever he deletes another player's PC. The problem certainly isn't "raider groups," it's "Armageddon players." It's no secret that this game is home to a subset of players who just go out of their way to find excuses to PK, and sometimes that creates an interesting #HarshWorld dynamic, other times it's just arbitrary death for no real reason. Sometimes these players find a home in some raider crew, sometimes they're AoD, sometimes they're d-elf or 'rinth, etc.
Scenes can be deceptive as well. One time while playing [redacted] I was out riding and a CW person rode into the room and just attacked me. Being a skilled enforcer with AI strength, I knocked her out with one hit to the head (lol bludgeoning) and had a long and enriching scene afterwards, both of us knowing that they weren't much of a threat to me. It led to hours of interesting roleplay and the hopeful beginnings of cooperation between the Guild and the CW. But if my character had been shit, that player would probably have killed me on the spot and I'd be sitting there going "what the fuck was the point of that?" Don't know what their motivations were at the time, but when I unspeakable'd them to the head with a maul, they were suddenly a lot more accomodating in their RP.
Look, we all know that raiders are played primarily by people who get a kick out of getting one over on other players. In my experience, if you play along, you're usually gonna be alright; but sometimes they just want to hear that beep and then roleplay is an afterthought and you're the loser if you try to take the moral high ground.
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kannot
Clueless newb
Posts: 126
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Post by kannot on May 19, 2019 4:43:34 GMT -5
First off, fuck is with this forum lol nothing is posted here for days and sometimes weeks then suddenly one thread pops up and all the shadowboarders blip in out of nowhere! Useful af though, not complaining. I haven't played since before they made that change where there's always some chance to dodge no matter what. If that has upset the system, I can't account for that. Prior to that, it was very black and white: if someone in your clan had really high defense, sparring was a fantastic way to raise skills. If noone did, which was usually the case once you got to journeyman weapon skills, sparring was nearly worthless and you would have been better served with the freedom to seek out what few NPCs in the world can still provide training at that point. I don't think they ever changed what off/def actually does, but two years ago or something like that, they made it so that your offense needs to be within a certain range of the target's defense, and vice versa, in order to have a chance to increase off/def, weapon skills and two handed (but dual wield was apparently excempt). Also, some of the new classes start with higher offense than the old guilds did. I know at least enforcer starts higher than warrior did, and raider probably has more than ranger did. They also now start at apprentice weapon skills instead of novice. I was unable to ever surpass journeyman weapons on enforcer. Tried for ages and it just didn't happen. Right out of the gate, I could barely get a miss off anything you can realistically go and fight. By the time I'd trained up parry and defense to the point where I could take on things like gith, tarantulas and mantis, those could no longer dodge me. Well, I could eke out maybe one miss per three tarantulas, but at that point I wasn't even sure I could still gain from them anyway even when I did occasionally miss. I tried joining the Byn, but nobody there could dodge me either and the clan was pretty cucked at the time so I gave up on that as well. On the other hand, I've raised weapons to advanced on miscreants with laughable ease using basic 'rinth NPCs and things like that. Things my enforcers and raiders couldn't even hope to miss at low journeyman. Offense goes up at a rate that depends on how close your class is to "heavy combat," and it just seems that the heavies are at serious risk of getting screwed over by their own offense. You can only bypass this problem if you have someone with really high defense to spar with, and you usually don't. There usually aren't any such characters in the clans that spar. Now that there's always a chance to miss, things may be better or they may not. Depends how lenient the off vs def calculations are; if you're at the point where something can no longer dodge you the normal way, will the "always a small chance" type of dodge even help or will your offense already be too high against their defense to qualify for gains anyway? Couldn't say, but I suspect this feature probably doesn't do much to solve the problem. To really make meaningful progress, you have to miss 5+ times per fight. I swear I remember something about a recent change where they smoothed it out or something, to address the issue of some kind of false cap.
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