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Post by shakes on May 3, 2019 16:51:24 GMT -5
I love miscreant/stalker for exactly the reasons you said. They are the masters of what they do ... not super at combat but they can become more than competent. And all their other advantages mean you can pick your fights.
When combat is less than 10% of what you expect to engage in, it's great to be awesome at everything else. If you pair a miscreant or stalker with a good crafting class, you can do a lot.
What I don't understand though is why infiltrator feels so 'meh'.
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jkarr
GDB Superstar
Posts: 2,027
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Post by jkarr on May 3, 2019 17:44:45 GMT -5
What I don't understand though is why infiltrator feels so 'meh'. prob because too used to needing master hide and sneak to do the job effectively when now only 3 weaker classes are even able to see infils when their doing the stealth thing right also prob feeling growing pains from having to change ur strategy to kill master scanners rather than feeling cozy and fucking hidling for rl hours in the same room as just abt any mark before making the strike lol
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kannot
Clueless newb
Posts: 126
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Post by kannot on May 4, 2019 8:20:32 GMT -5
Elven infiltrators shouldn't be seen by master scanners either I think, atleast with high exceptional-AI agility and hide+ gear. Their sleath_manip scores are insane, and that counts for whether another char_can_see your char, while you're hidden.
If their hide caps at like 70, they can still +gear it up to like 80 atleast I guess, then atleast a 35 stealth_manip bonus from having 24+ agility, taking it to 120. In comparison, you'd have someone with a master scan of say 90? +5 if they're high wis somehow, then +20 at max from the random bonus, so that's 115.
And now you're invisible. For reference, non AI-agility humans get a max of 20 bonus to stealth_manip.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2019 12:50:40 GMT -5
Few notes.
Delven racial sneak/hide caps at 80, before the stat modifier, not 40.
I suspect this has been reworked somehow. I dont have access to code, nor would I have discussed it in such details. But just by observation and practice, watching someone does 'not' prevent them from sneaking/hiding. Even if you notice his activities, other people in the room do not.
In practical matters (not to excuse code inadequacies, if they do exist). The whole scenario is a little rare, or entirely moot. If you're peeking at someone, you're most likely hidden. If you're hidden, no one with watch can see you and will not roll watch checks. If they can see you, then either your hide is already failed, they are scanning, or they've set their watch on you already. If your hide is already failed, you're in more trouble then you know. If they're scanning, then they're not watching and must rely only on passive watch skill check. If they set a watch on you, are visible, and you're performing tricky stuff without confirming that nobody in the room is watching you, then you deserve to be caught. If they're unseen and have a watch on you, then you're definitely in trouble and in for a lot of surprises in your near future, regardless of code.
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kannot
Clueless newb
Posts: 126
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Post by kannot on May 6, 2019 16:22:08 GMT -5
Few notes. Delven racial sneak/hide caps at 80, before the stat modifier, not 40. I suspect this has been reworked somehow. I dont have access to code, nor would I have discussed it in such details. But just by observation and practice, watching someone does 'not' prevent them from sneaking/hiding. Even if you notice his activities, other people in the room do not. In practical matters (not to excuse code inadequacies, if they do exist). The whole scenario is a little rare, or entirely moot. If you're peeking at someone, you're most likely hidden. If you're hidden, no one with watch can see you and will not roll watch checks. If they can see you, then either your hide is already failed, they are scanning, or they've set their watch on you already. If your hide is already failed, you're in more trouble then you know. If they're scanning, then they're not watching and must rely only on passive watch skill check. If they set a watch on you, are visible, and you're performing tricky stuff without confirming that nobody in the room is watching you, then you deserve to be caught. If they're unseen and have a watch on you, then you're definitely in trouble and in for a lot of surprises in your near future, regardless of code. Hey, so you're right that it is fringe. The main issue of concern is the case you mentioned, high-scanner triggering your hide off, the passive watch skill check, which even if is not inevitable in itself, is repeated with every peek. So if you peek around at everyone before going in to snag something, you're likely getting fucked over by the watch checks, WITHOUT realising it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2019 16:48:21 GMT -5
the likely hood is something stupid.
I mean for this to trigger, the person scanning will need to pass a scan check 'and' a passive watch skill check at the same instant. I personally never had that happen to anyone. Has anyone else?
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Post by shakes on May 6, 2019 17:18:39 GMT -5
I've had numerous occasions where I became unhidden for reasons I couldn't explain. But since you're not given a message as to your hide status, trying to guess whether it was a steal or a peek or what that caused it is very difficult. It's not like you peek and then 5 pairs of eyes immediately turn on you. Unless you have a partner spam-looking in the room to make sure you're still hidden, you're not going to know for sure.
What's worse is the number of 'no hide' rooms scattered around the open streets. You're shadowing someone and they go 20 rooms without noticing you, then immediately freeze and look at you ... then you just went through one.
You're not going to get much traction in improving hide/peek/steal functionality when there's elves running around stealing everything that isn't locked down for giggles. But as someone who enjoys their sneaky characters, there's some quirks to it which will end your career and/or character very fast if you're not careful.
It's almost pointless to try and play a thief with a complex cover story because sooner or later the RNG will get you and then suddenly EVERYONE in the city blames you for that missing mount ticket last month, or their parrying dagger going missing, or some other nonsense. I feel like I ought to write up a metagamer's thief guide for this forum pretty soon so we could get some discussion on that. I feel crime and skullduggery add so much to the game that it's a shame it's perceived as so difficult to pull off.
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Post by shakes on May 6, 2019 17:24:17 GMT -5
Actually, for fun, let's start that metagamer's thief guide. I'll throw up a few points and the rest of you chime in with whatever your points are, anecdotal or otherwise.
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Post by lechuck on May 6, 2019 17:24:49 GMT -5
It's kinda hard to know if you caused someone's hide to break via passive scan because there's no way of telling if that was the reason, but I've definitely seen peek echoes from hidden people. had a miscreant with master scan and watch and that character could see everything except other miscreants. The way scan works, if you have like ten points more than their combined hide value, you see the shadow pretty much like a persistent entity in the room. Happens easily enough now that most classes have advanced hide. Then it's just a matter of succesful watch checks. Master watch feels about as consistent as master listen, i.e. you practically always succeed. I'd sometimes notice someone peeking five times in a row.
On that note, you can pretty much forget about unstealthed stealing nowadays. Miscreant has become the go-to class for all things non-combat, from basic criminals to aides and sponsored GMH chars. When you have no need for combat or crafting skills, miscreant masters just about all the remaining skills in the game, so where these characters used to be divided across pickpocket, assassin, burglar and sometimes non-mundane guilds, most of them are now miscreant. It means loads of otherwise unassuming chars will have the capacity for master scan, hide, sneak, listen, watch, peek, steal, pick, etc. If you think you can be the movie pickpocket who lifts a dude's wallet while shaking his hand, don't bother. It fucks with all forms of criminal roleplay, but especially anything done unstealthed. Odds are too high that he or someone else in the room will spot you. Another consequence of this is that the apartment situation is even worse than it always was as like half of Allanak's population can pick locks.
If you haven't played a miscreant before, it's kind of a bizarre experience. It's almost a bit like playing a mundane mindbender in a sense. What I mean is that you have (when maxed, that is) this suite of practically all the game's non-combat/crafting skills and they all cap higher than the other classes. You're undetectable, which pickpockets weren't in the past when pickpocket hide capped at 80 and half the playerbase was rangers with 90 scan. You get top scan, which burglars lacked in the past. Your hunt caps like twice as high as assassins did, and city hunt at master is like a fucking GPS tracker if you know who you're looking for. In the past, only rangers really got a high hunt skill and it is, oddly enough, way less useful in the wild. In the city with its known routes and hotspots, you can often just tell where someone's going by the time you've tracked them halfway there.
If there was more going on in the game to spy on and interfere with, it would be a bit broken. The reach that miscreants have inside the city is just absurd. Get into any backpack, any apartment, plant anything on anyone, be invisible at will, defeat the stealth of most classes, etc. It's just the ultimate godlike spy class, but there's not much to spy on.
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kannot
Clueless newb
Posts: 126
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Post by kannot on May 6, 2019 17:58:54 GMT -5
Planting is harder.
You dont get the same bonuses or something as far as I remember.
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Post by shakes on May 6, 2019 18:00:47 GMT -5
That's absolutely true. Miscreants are just really super-powerful and they're a goto class now for anyone who wants to be in the city. Stalker is just as powerful in the wild, but I don't know it's being used as much.
I don't know how many Kadian crafters, noble's aides, Templar's aides, independent 'merchants', or even Byn runners I've peeked into their packs and seen lockpicks and a dark, hooded cloak. Or how many of them I have hidden somewhere and watched as they tried to climb up to a balcony. Or caught foraging spoiled kalans in a midden heap.
BUT ... the saving grace is that a huge number of them don't know how to fully exploit all those skills.
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kannot
Clueless newb
Posts: 126
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Post by kannot on May 6, 2019 18:02:39 GMT -5
the likely hood is something stupid. I mean for this to trigger, the person scanning will need to pass a scan check 'and' a passive watch skill check at the same instant. I personally never had that happen to anyone. Has anyone else? I think it did to be tbh if im not being paranoid. Spam peek. Thing is even at high peek you can sometimes fail because of how many checks it has (these are related to your messaged that say it is too "difficult" to peek, THAT DOES NOT MEAN YOU FAILED AND GOT A SKILL UP). So with many people in the room, you're going to be peeking like a kid in a whorehouse. Theres also the fact that, as mentioned, failed steal can mean death. So it's not a question of "is this very unlikely to occur" its more "if this happens, I could damn well get fucked" Ill dig up the watch_success code later and give you an exact probability. Per peek.
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kannot
Clueless newb
Posts: 126
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Post by kannot on May 6, 2019 18:04:31 GMT -5
the saving grace is that a huge number of them don't know how to fully exploit all those skills. Uwu, right up that guide shakes! Or actually dont just PM me!
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Post by shakes on May 6, 2019 18:08:10 GMT -5
Ha! It's not your private world. This city deserves a better class of criminal.
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Post by lechuck on May 6, 2019 19:09:12 GMT -5
Fine, I'll write a miscreant guide.
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