Haven has the potential for good roleplay, and some of its players are really good at characterization. However, the community is an awful clique mob and their forum culture is so frigid and toxic that almost nobody posts there except to soapbox about the right way to roleplay. There are like two or three posts per day, and one new thread every three days or so, on a game with as many players as Arm. About 75% of threads consist of some moron on a soapbox PSAing about how you should roleplay.
I played some last year, but at the time, it was nearly impossible to get anything done if you weren't part of the in-crowd. Basically, if you weren't in one of the two or three cliques dominating the game, nobody trusted you to participate in any significant roleplay. You'd get passed over, ignored, and generally wouldn't have opportunities to apply your character to anything more serious than chatting over tea in one of the Haven's fifteen coffee shops. If you tried to do something more meaningful, it would usually go completely unacknowledged and lead to nothing. This isn't just my personal experience, this was something I witnessed repeatedly and have heard others talk about numerous times.
So you believe and/or agree with statements made about Haven regarding OOC cliques, isolation of viable characters, and bad forum culture... But you then proceed to try and champion Haven because you personally haven't had these problems? That's like saying, I don't mind a racist cop because he isn't racist against me and then you encourage people to call him for help.
If you enjoy Haven that's great. The moment you try and promote Haven though there are plenty of people willing to point out its considerable litany of failings. Why? Because your experience is atypical to the experience someone else is most likely going to have.
Providing positive anecdotal evidence without acknowledge any of the flaws which you agree are either believable or true is championing it or promoting it depending on how finicky you want to be about definitions.
Example - ARM is great, the RP is gritty, and I have a lot of fun exploring the world. vs I have a lot of fun on ARM, I get a decent amount of gritty RP and enjoy exploring the wilderness. If you avoid the staff and enjoy small group RP, it can be a great time. --- One of these is misleading because it doesn't address the known problems of the game, which we presume the poster knows exist. The other at least says hey avoid staff because the staff are a big complaint with ARM. This would lead a reader with no knowledge of the game to realize there is a problem with staff.
TLDR - For everytime you provide positive feedback while knowingly not addressing the crappy parts of the game, someone will jump up to remind others about the crappy part. Cheerios must be pissed in.
Basically, Haven has the same problem that Atonement did: when a game is set up with premade clans that are designed to be enemies, it'll breed a culture of mistrust between players. You *know* that people are going to be your enemy, so you don't trust anyone until you feel confident that they're on your side. This leads to exclusion and OOC comraderie, both of which plagued both games. People start to form OOC cliques in order to ensure that they won't get backstabbed or have to play with someone whose last character was their enemy, and unknown characters are shunned unless they stick around for an unreasonably long time and are finally allowed to be part of the real game.
Some players won't even realize this is going on. There'll always be a portion of the playerbase who is content to sit in bars and talk, go out and kill NPCs, look for romantic roleplay and whatever other casual stuff people get up to. Players who exist in that region of the game might never find out about the aforementioned obstacles because their habits don't lead them in that direction. They'll claim the game is fine and they've never heard of any of those problems.
and unknown characters are shunned unless they stick around for an unreasonably long time and are finally allowed to be part of the real game.
Not in Atonement.
You should know better to compare apples to oranges, in that regard. The commentary on the pre-built factions in Atonement beta is interesting, though. And I agree, you definitely saw that in mid-Beta when everyone started getting comfy and organized. But I don't think it was major downfall or that it limited progression of conflicts. Shit, you saw it bolster and -create- interesting conflicts. For example, the Anaxios vs. everyone war had strong OOC vibes. However, I don't think many people took it to heart. Now, those pre-built OOC relationships had a big impact on Beta 2.0 on the Atlas. Don't know if you were around for that, but basically, the ooc cliques continued beyond the construct of the factions in original Beta. The downfalls of Beta 2.0 on the Atlas are numerous, though, and could have amplified those past rivalries and cliques.
qwerty: and if someone is unexplainably hostile to you for no good reason. Chalk it off to being an asshole and slit their throat
Sept 5, 2019 12:41:42 GMT -5
qwerty: All in all, in my observation. OOC relativity comes about cliques, then hostility. As in, players might not care if you offed their previous character. But they might like and include another PC whom they talk to more often ooc.
Sept 5, 2019 12:42:44 GMT -5
qwerty: But again. You cant control it. Cant prove it. The nagging suspicion will ruin your gameplay. I just try not to worry about it and react to the gameworld events as if there is no ooc influence. Doing anything else makes for a really shitty experience
Sept 5, 2019 13:01:26 GMT -5
qwerty: You cant stop people from talking ooc. And if people talk ooc, it's bound to happen that they cooperate ooc. Or ... or not. But you wont know and therefore, you'll suspect. And this suspicion will kill the game for you.
Sept 5, 2019 17:46:21 GMT -5
qwerty: 4/5 times someone rages against staff, staff had nothing to do with it. It's just number one suspicion people go to.
Sept 5, 2019 17:47:19 GMT -5
mehtastic: Ignorance is bliss.
Sept 5, 2019 17:50:44 GMT -5
delerak: I recently accused staff of some nonsense. They showed me the log and I felt embarrassed. It's hard to shake the paranoia of days gone by when you were slayed by staff for going afk and using a script to forage wood.
Sept 5, 2019 18:32:02 GMT -5
jkarr: look east. near: agafari forest. far: agafari forest. very far: the ghost of halaster is here grinning evilly
Sept 5, 2019 22:30:43 GMT -5
mehtastic: I posted it on the Discord server a long time ago, but unfortunately I don't use Discord much anymore. If you can get a Discord invite you can get the code, probably.
Sept 26, 2019 19:33:50 GMT -5
qwerty: ask jcarter. I think he's giving it away
Sept 27, 2019 17:34:42 GMT -5
mehtastic: I am back on Discord. If you want a copy of the code dump, join the shadowboard Discord and ask, or DM me: meh#0490. Feel free to DM if you feel addicted to Armageddon and want help detaching yourself from it, too.
Oct 10, 2019 9:01:42 GMT -5