t2thej
staff puppet account
Posts: 44
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Post by t2thej on Jun 24, 2014 22:28:42 GMT -5
Especially with typing like t2thej's post. Holy shit, if that's one of the head guys of an RPI bitching at you saying you 'couldn't be bothered to do [it] correctly' then that's a caseload of irony and a huge reason to never go near SoI. And that's ignoring the fact that literally any codebase will allow you to change little stuff like that with an absolute minimum of effort. It's also ignoring the fact that any computer will let you spell and grammar check the little stuff with absolute minimum effort. You're essentially saying that no admin should ever prioritize their time over people who cannot put forth the same effort as them? It's pretty basic, submit a correct application and you can play the game. It's also ignoring the fact that in Delerak's case, I can guarantee that no staffer was even remotely going to waste their time correcting his application, he was a known and admitted troll. I have nothing to do with SoI now, not for a long time. It is very easy to set up a senario that it is best to correct application. In the case of SoI, first time apps, the ones with the most errors, were often reviewed by guides, which were trusted players, and they often did correct these things.
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Post by latrineswimmer on Jun 24, 2014 23:00:23 GMT -5
Wow. T2. I am glad you aren't involved with SoI. The fact you would spitefully reject an app for a single typo even though it would take a second to fix it; thereby using more staff time to go through it again shows how twisted your mind is. I have never had drama like that on Arm and I am glad I didn't play SoI when you were there to get your fascism on.
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t2thej
staff puppet account
Posts: 44
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Post by t2thej on Jun 24, 2014 23:27:23 GMT -5
Wow. T2. I am glad you aren't involved with SoI. The fact you would spitefully reject an app for a single typo even though it would take a second to fix it; thereby using more staff time to go through it again shows how twisted your mind is. I have never had drama like that on Arm and I am glad I didn't play SoI when you were there to get your fascism on. I never said that, but I don't care? My argument is that it is just as whiny to complain that you get one rejected for not doing what you expect a staffer to do. Nothing else. Reading comprehension of people who spend all day reading.. whew.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2014 23:28:06 GMT -5
Yeah, I don't get that line of reasoning. It outright takes more time to reject and then read and reapprove an application than it does to fix a typo.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2014 23:29:20 GMT -5
Further, using your own graphical games analogy from the previous page, where you compare an incorrect description/application to a faulty graphic, those are on the game owner to fix or delete, not the player.
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t2thej
staff puppet account
Posts: 44
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Post by t2thej on Jun 24, 2014 23:32:03 GMT -5
Further, using your own graphical games analogy from the previous page, where you compare an incorrect description/application to a faulty graphic, those are on the game owner to fix or delete, not the player. No, it's more like submitting an object, mob, craft, etc, incorrect, and then getting upset enough to make a big deal out of my not fixing it. A staffers time is more valuable than a players, which is a reason why they bothered asking? Ya'll can chill though.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2014 0:50:13 GMT -5
That's the biggest thing that ever left a bad taste in my mouth with regards to mudding period. No, a staffer's time is not more valuable than a players. Anyone sinking valuable seconds of their life into an imaginary world is paying the same amount in time of their life invested, second for second. Just because you have more demands of your time does not make your time more valuable, and frankly, anyone who thinks they are more important than anyone else in any fashion is a fucking dick. A person is a person is a person is a person. As for the ROLE of staff member, if you don't enjoy spending that valuable time on those duties, do everyone a favor and remove yourself from obligation to them. That attitude of entitlement and act of being a martyr whose time is so much goddamn more important than everyone elses on the part of Nyr and Adhira are the very things making Armageddon a shitbox experience to try and do anything that involves a staff member. Sorry, if you don't like the FACT that everyone is equal, take your fucking ball and go home.
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Post by legendary on Jun 25, 2014 6:59:27 GMT -5
What he's saying isn't wrong, just worded in about the worst possible way. When you were on staff, you were an application Terminator. I have never, prior to or after your time on staff, seen application queues cleared more efficiently and that is in no way an exaggeration. By virtue of your service to the many, as one of a few people responsible for the upkeep of the game, your time was worth more than that of any single player. It doesn't diminish the value of the individual player to accept that their time was spent having fun, while yours was spent ensuring they were able to have fun in as efficient and uninterrupted manner as possible. Without the few, the many would have nothing and that is a logistical fact. Even an empty game that is maintained exists with the potential to live up to it's purpose. Without someone to maintain it, it wouldn't exist at all. Your time, minute for minute, was more important to the games success as a member of the staff than it would ever be as a player because you could do so much more with it, if used properly. To fix a typo here or there is a kindness, but you have to draw the line before it becomes an unnecessary time sink. As a member of the staff, you owe it to the game and it's players to know when to draw the line and to draw it impartially, so that you have the time to fix a little typo here and there and still get everything else on your list done in the time you have available to you. It's unavoidable that someone is going to become sore in the ass about having an application rejected for what they feel should have been easy for you to fix, so it's better to just decide where you draw the line and stick to it, come hell or high water. He isn't wrong: submit a correct application and you can play the game. It isn't as unreasonable as people are making it out to be, though that may be because his attitude resembles that of Nyr and the sack of used douche water that passes for his immediate subordinates.
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Post by nobodyatall on Jun 25, 2014 9:34:09 GMT -5
Yeah but his typo laden post with 8th grade grammar mistakes being used to sling mud at people certainly puts into perspective his 'CAN'T TAKE THE TIME TO NOTICE A SMALL MISTAKE' line of reasoning.
And while you're somewhat right, legendary, the air of entitlement from staff twists itself into a terrible thing as seen in Armageddon. Anything past a normal application takes weeks, if not months. Anything that might involve a staffer's time tends to get actively shut down or crushed. Any change to the world or the way things work is verboten.
So while you're somewhat correct, Anaiah's time does more for the game than Amos' time, when someone at the staff level gets annoyed and starts making bad decisions it begins to affect things negatively much more thoroughly as well. So it evens out in the end, and Anaiah's bad actions (where Anaiah is 'random staffer' not Anaiah herself) actually massively begin to hurt the game, where Amos' bad actions don't tend to do very much at all.
Fixing a typo takes all of 30 seconds, and rereading an entire application takes longer. It is LESS staff time to fix the minor issues and move on than it is to boilerplate deny, then have to re-read and go through the application again.
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t2thej
staff puppet account
Posts: 44
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Post by t2thej on Jun 25, 2014 10:44:21 GMT -5
Yeah but his typo laden post with 8th grade grammar mistakes being used to sling mud at people certainly puts into perspective his 'CAN'T TAKE THE TIME TO NOTICE A SMALL MISTAKE' line of reasoning. And while you're somewhat right, legendary, the air of entitlement from staff twists itself into a terrible thing as seen in Armageddon. Anything past a normal application takes weeks, if not months. Anything that might involve a staffer's time tends to get actively shut down or crushed. Any change to the world or the way things work is verboten. So while you're somewhat correct, Anaiah's time does more for the game than Amos' time, when someone at the staff level gets annoyed and starts making bad decisions it begins to affect things negatively much more thoroughly as well. So it evens out in the end, and Anaiah's bad actions (where Anaiah is 'random staffer' not Anaiah herself) actually massively begin to hurt the game, where Amos' bad actions don't tend to do very much at all. Fixing a typo takes all of 30 seconds, and rereading an entire application takes longer. It is LESS staff time to fix the minor issues and move on than it is to boilerplate deny, then have to re-read and go through the application again. And overall, it is even -less- time to do it right the first time. It's spelling and grammar. No one is perfect. But the fact you can't be bothered and act like it isn't a big deal? SoI never had applications that took weeks, let alone -days-. It just didn't happen. I managed to present my arguments without being insulting, and I never slung mud.. To crush another excuse, you don't have to re-read the entire application, we log the responses. We note that, and address the changes. This isn't to punish, or to make me feel like I am somehow better than the players.. No, I have 10 crafts I want to get done, several progs to do, I have an RPT later, and so on. Once again, the only issue here is a player couldn't be bothered to put their words in a text editor. Hell, most browsers do this for you. Do you think everyone on staff is perfect and never misspells anything? No, we dump it in a spell check. You're literally arguing that you shouldn't have to bother, admins should take their time to do it, and that it's okay. An admins time, by virtue of having fewer of them than players, meaning less time, -is- more valuable. I'm not arguing that it makes them better than a player, the case is simply that of all the things admins can do, making them waste their time on something -you- could do is disrespectful.
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Post by jcarter on Jun 25, 2014 11:22:06 GMT -5
You're literally arguing that you shouldn't have to bother, admins should take their time to do it, and that it's okay. An admins time, by virtue of having fewer of them than players, meaning less time, -is- more valuable. I'm not arguing that it makes them better than a player, the case is simply that of all the things admins can do, making them waste their time on something -you- could do is disrespectful. 1)small typos happen. not everyone runs everything through a spellcheck for their text-based games. if you see a small one, or several small ones, just fix it. it's a collaborative game, either collaborate or don't be shocked when people think you're a bunch of dicks. 2)your time is not more valuable than mine. your time is no more valuable than anyone else's. we're all enjoying a free recreational hobby with no profit involved whatsoever. there is no dollar amount placed onto your time, or my time or anyone's. if you're breaking time down into arbitrary values and creating video game economies of time then i don't think you're the kind of person who should even be staff on a volunteer collaborative video game. 3)declaring that it's disrespectful is an overreaction. it's not disrespectful to want someone to fix something quickly if you missed it or pick up on your error. it's disrespectful and arrogant to kick them to the back of the bus because feh my time cannot be spared on correcting cemetary to cemetery.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2014 12:21:31 GMT -5
I can understand your point, t2thej, I just completely disagree. Many applications, about half, have at least one thing wrong with them. Whether it is a missing comma, a run-on sentence, a typo, a misspelling, or a misuse of to/too/two. While I can understand your position, I simply disagree. As a player, your job is not quality control, as a staff member, that is a part of your job, and I think that behaving as though it is not puts the onus on the wrong shoulders. While, yes, a gamebreaking or outright wrong/bad application should by all rights be denied, it is kinder, and in my opinion a better use of time, to just fix what is wrong within reason, so that everyone is able to have a better time. If I have an rpt, I make the time for it. If I have progs/scripts to work on, I make time for them. But regularly scheduled responsibility on a daily level? I expect that to take a certain amount of time and if I don't have that time, I leave it to those who do.
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Post by lyse on Jun 25, 2014 12:23:15 GMT -5
Oh those spelling demons ( or is it daemon)? I don't know, my spell check didn't correct it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2014 12:26:26 GMT -5
What he's saying isn't wrong, just worded in about the worst possible way. When you were on staff, you were an application Terminator. I have never, prior to or after your time on staff, seen application queues cleared more efficiently and that is in no way an exaggeration. By virtue of your service to the many, as one of a few people responsible for the upkeep of the game, your time was worth more than that of any single player. It doesn't diminish the value of the individual player to accept that their time was spent having fun, while yours was spent ensuring they were able to have fun in as efficient and uninterrupted manner as possible. Without the few, the many would have nothing and that is a logistical fact. Even an empty game that is maintained exists with the potential to live up to it's purpose. Without someone to maintain it, it wouldn't exist at all. Your time, minute for minute, was more important to the games success as a member of the staff than it would ever be as a player because you could do so much more with it, if used properly. To fix a typo here or there is a kindness, but you have to draw the line before it becomes an unnecessary time sink. As a member of the staff, you owe it to the game and it's players to know when to draw the line and to draw it impartially, so that you have the time to fix a little typo here and there and still get everything else on your list done in the time you have available to you. It's unavoidable that someone is going to become sore in the ass about having an application rejected for what they feel should have been easy for you to fix, so it's better to just decide where you draw the line and stick to it, come hell or high water. He isn't wrong: submit a correct application and you can play the game. It isn't as unreasonable as people are making it out to be, though that may be because his attitude resembles that of Nyr and the sack of used douche water that passes for his immediate subordinates. 1. Thank you for all the nice stuff, seriously, I blush. 2. The bolded parts: I simply disagree. There are thousands of muds whose code still exists to run somewhere. In fact, any person can open, set up, and host a mud. In my opinion, it is the PLAYERS, not the staff, who make the mud. Yes, staff have more commands/building at their fingertips, but that is a flaw with the way gamebuilding works, rather than an indicator of who is important. Also my opinion, of course, but it is what it is.
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Post by nobodyatall on Jun 25, 2014 14:32:03 GMT -5
A bunch of apologist bullshit. Nah, sorry. Fix the typo, move on. Quit being an arrogant douche just because your role in the cooperative game is 'guy who checks for typos in the application queue'.
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