Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2013 23:54:52 GMT -5
What does a city elves racial steal max at? Is it worth even practicing/using say, in allanak?
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Post by lulz on Oct 31, 2013 0:14:55 GMT -5
I would advise you to refrain from using that skill. It will only get you killed, as it caps very low.
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Hardboiled
Clueless newb
Eggs, their good for you.
Posts: 116
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Post by Hardboiled on Oct 31, 2013 0:21:05 GMT -5
I heard it gets around 70~ which means it hits journeyman and might just breaks just into advanced. I don't think it is worth practicing/using unless you have high sneak/hide though.
You might get a couple extra sid here and there after becoming good at it but really without peek it is a little gimped. Lets face it the stuff on people's belts is hardly ever worth the time it will take to roll a new character if you screw up. I might be worth it if you are an assassin though, and you want to try risking taking their weapons before a backstab attempt but even then you might just give yourself away.
Frankly burgalars should just be merged with pickpockets minus the city scan and renamed Thief while the thief subguild renamed to pickpockets. Pickpockets is a worthless guild that is built around annoying people but that's another thread.
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Post by lulz on Oct 31, 2013 0:43:30 GMT -5
More like 60 if I remember correctly, which means low advanced. That means roughly 6 successes out of 10 attempts without taking your agility into account, I believe.
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Post by Prime Minister Sinister on Oct 31, 2013 0:50:05 GMT -5
Taking the uber higher-end C-Elf agility into account though....
Or does agility really make that much of a difference?
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Post by lulz on Oct 31, 2013 0:53:27 GMT -5
At times it can, yeah. I would not advise you to rely on stats however, as skill is more important until you get into the 50-day range, IMO.
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Post by themountaingoat on Oct 31, 2013 7:45:36 GMT -5
Pickpockets is a worthless guild that is built around annoying people but that's another thread. Not knowing how to properly play a guild doesn't mean it's worthless. Pickpockets are motherfucking ghosts.
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Hardboiled
Clueless newb
Eggs, their good for you.
Posts: 116
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Post by Hardboiled on Oct 31, 2013 9:35:30 GMT -5
Pickpockets is a worthless guild that is built around annoying people but that's another thread. Not knowing how to properly play a guild doesn't mean it's worthless. Pickpockets are motherfucking ghosts. When you post something like this you need to keep in mind this isn't the GDB. Putting aside the fact I've played assassin, burglar and pickpocket, think for a moment, remember that most of the skill sets are all posted here. Mind you some of them are outdated but you can pretty much tell pickpockets are lacking. They are great for people who generally just want to annoy others by taking the shit on their belt, and that is really all they can often steal, you can easy prevent everything else. In terms of knocking people the fuck out, I would argue rangers with thug are better at sneaking out and finding newbs to knock and and steal from, otherwise I found the assassin with higher offense bonus was pretty effective too. Once upon a time they had peek, but now we have the cutpurse. Assassins and burglars will just about do everything else and more. Pickpockets should be dissected and that love split between assassin and burglars and you'll have more interesting well rounded guilds. There is a reason why I've broken into apartments and had mine broken onto as well many many times and why I've been back stabbed and used backstab several times. However, I've only had my shit lifted from my belt just once in all the years and years of playing. These aren't generally only my feelings either, you can check up on the GDB and see how many times the same sentiment pops up. However, if this were the GDB we'd had brainless cronies popping in and stating how they mysteriously played the guild and had total fun with it(whether they ever fucking played the guild or not), but of course they can't give any details because 'find out IC'. This isn't the GDB though so while I am happy to accept that I may be mistaken, please tell me exactly how it is you are playing the guild properly because frankly with gear I've never found them to be anymore of a 'ghost' then an assassin or burglar.
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Post by themountaingoat on Oct 31, 2013 10:08:05 GMT -5
I'm at work, so I don't have time to respond as comprehensively as I'd like, but I'll take a quick stab at it.
The primary reason I find people consider the pickpocket a useless guild is the lack of useful skills. However, it's my opinion maxxed steal is incredibly, incredibly powerful. Add to that a 95 cap on sneak and hide close enough to 100 that you can gear past max scan, you can go pretty much anywhere you want, provided you have someone to shadow.
My pickpockets have stolen wands off templars, keyrings off nobles, magic rings off magickers, and entire fortunes from merchants, you name it. If you focus on what pickpockets can't do - pick locks, backstab, fight, sure.. they look like a pretty pathetic guild. Calling them worthless, however, is an unfair assessment. They require crazy patience and occasionally, colossal brass balls, but in the decade plus I've been playing, my pickpockets are always the most enjoyable.
I'll post more later.
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Post by themountaingoat on Oct 31, 2013 10:09:35 GMT -5
Also, if you combine pickpocket with some of the extended subguilds, you can create an epic hybrid class.
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bobo
Clueless newb
Posts: 58
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Post by bobo on Oct 31, 2013 10:56:14 GMT -5
PPs are kind of a crap guild. Don't get me wrong, there are things about them that make them fun to play, but they have some illogical limitations and disadvantages compared to other guilds. Let me detail:
The skill tree makes no sense. Sleight of hand should be a bread-and-butter skill for PPs. This is confirmed by the fact that PPs get it to a higher cap than any other guild. Yet for no good reason, it branches off steal. Since skills always branch at guild-max minus 10, that means PPs have to twink steal up to 85 just to branch a skill that they really should start out with. It can get very hard to induce failure at that level, especially if your dex is high. Compare this to burglars, who get access to sleight much more quickly just because the steal cap is lower. Branching sap off of steal instead of sneak is another minor annoyance, though PPs probably shouldn't be in a hurry to get sap anyway considering it tends to get them killed.
At least they no longer get piercing/slashing. Much was made of the incongruence of getting sap without bludgeoning. I personally kind of liked it because it seemed like it was intended to distinguish between something that was just for sneak attack purposes and an actual integrated fighting style like assassins have. However it made a crap guild even worse, so thankfully it has been changed.
PPs also get hide capped at 80 which sucks bigtime, not to mention they have to branch it. So much for ghosts. It makes them objectively an inferior stealth guild, presumably to make them a bit easier to catch while they loot your stuff? Assassins and burglars both get sneak/hide to 95/90. Why shouldn't burglars get sneak capped lower because their job doesn't involve sneaking up on people. If PPs are going to have their basic skills nerfed, they should be getting something pretty impressive to make up for it, but they really aren't. Max steal and peek are totally awesome, it's true, but you can be a competent thief with a burglar too, even if you can't steal the diamond out of Lord Templar's butthole.
Besides, most of the awesome things you can steal with max PP steal are going to be borderline twinky, so enjoy worrying about potentially losing karma for actually stealing anything that becomes possible between 60-95 steal. Also I've seen it happen many times before, if you actually steal a few valuable things as a PP, you will become a public enemy and PCs will talk about you IC in ways that subtly imply twinkitude. ("That thief stole it out of my hands while I was looking right at it!") That is, if you get caught. Which you will. Because you have hide capped at 80.
And those are the skills they do get. What about the skills they don't get: no hunt, no crafts, no brew, no pick. In exchange for having an incomplete slate of stealthy skills with weird caps and annoying branching structure, what do you get in return? Medium cap haggle. Medium cap scan that will never catch anything important (although maybe with extended subguilds there will be more mid-cap hiders around to make mid-cap scan actually meaning). A bit of parry if you live and train long enough. Flee is nice, I guess but overall, whoop-di-do. It's a good concept, I guess, a stealthy thief with extra defensive combat capacities and a touch of skill in the marketplace, but they could use some love.
I would suggest:
GIve PPs hunt along with scan. They should be able to track their marks the same as assassins do. Either put them on par with other stealth guilds as far as sneak/hide caps, or adjust the other stealthy guilds to have slightly lower caps on some skills to give them their own distinct flavor too. Give them sleight out the gate. Possibly switch sleight and steal on the burglar skill tree so burglars infringe less on PPs' territory.
Or sure, merge them with Burglars and call it Thief, but that will require a lot of careful thought regarding areas of overlap with Assassins.
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Hardboiled
Clueless newb
Eggs, their good for you.
Posts: 116
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Post by Hardboiled on Oct 31, 2013 10:56:18 GMT -5
The only thing I never got to do with my pickpockets was see if I could peek and steal from a sheath. I don't think you can, but that I'm not sure about. I always felt you needed to get lucky to steal something good off someone. If I don't want to get stolen from after all, you just won't, unless you knock me out which again I feel other can do better. I'm willing to agree though it is probably just a mater of patience. A lot of patience though. With stealth and hide though, i don't know this might be the fact my character have all had insanely high agility but my assassins and burglars have never been spotted. It could also be I played some of them in the north where there are mostly rangers with only wilderness scan. Maybe it has just been luck (and spice) on my part but how common has it been for others to get spotted with full hide/sneak gear? I've been under the impression that hide/sneak with full gear already routinely beat scan. Thank you for taking the time to elaborate though.
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Hardboiled
Clueless newb
Eggs, their good for you.
Posts: 116
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Post by Hardboiled on Oct 31, 2013 11:12:58 GMT -5
Or sure, merge them with Burglars and call it Thief, but that will require a lot of careful thought regarding areas of overlap with Assassins. This is what i would do: Remove backstab/poison from burglars and piercing weapons. Give them bludgeoning weapons and sap (sap to be branched later in their careers) to go with their slashing weapons Burglars would then get sleight of hand, peek and steal maxed each branched in some fashion They would not get city scan but branch city hunt later in their careers. Thus burglars would be much more focused on stealing from people and places, while good at spying and becoming potentially deadly with sap later on. Assassin with maxxed backstab/throw/city scan and poison would be your go to people for killing.
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delerak
GDB Superstar
PK'ed by jcarter
"When you want to fool the world, tell the truth." - Otto Von Bismarck
Posts: 1,656
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Post by delerak on Oct 31, 2013 12:38:28 GMT -5
Hardboiled has the right of it here. You really should just have (1) super sneaky thief-like class and (1) deadly kind-of-sneaky kill you instantly class.
You know what is funny about Arm is that it has a lot of these old 'legacy' things still in place today that make no sense. The staff is so Metathesiophobic that they won't even change the mud for the better in these regards.
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Foyle
staff puppet account
Posts: 19
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Post by Foyle on Oct 31, 2013 13:36:00 GMT -5
They probably want maintain six no-karma guilds for beginners. So, just for fun, Burglar-PP merger happens. What do you guys think should be the 'new' sixth no-karma guild? Or would the basic five be enough?
Side note: it really makes no sense to me why burglars get better hide/sneak than PP but also, why do they get backstab? Or poisons? What's the point of three stealth guilds anyways? The design there seems incongruous, there's even more sub guilds for it as well. It seems a bit overdone.
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