mehtastic
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Post by mehtastic on Apr 14, 2024 17:55:04 GMT -5
The very normal effort to sort 100 people into 11 categories based on how slightly better or worse they are at the game is now a thing: gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,60314 The concept of karma should be embarrassing in this day and age, where RP games run on a more informal understanding between player and staff on what roles a player can manage and providing a chance to players based on their own enthusiasm for a role. The karma system is effectively just a consequence of the fact that everyone at Arm treats each other like garbage. The whole point of the new karma system, from staff's view, was to grade player skill more accurately. They felt 3-karma players were not playing very well for being at max karma. That being said, the fact that everyone's going in with a maximum of 6 karma and you need 5 karma to play a templar (in other words, you needed to have 3 karma in the old system to play a templar) means that the shitty garbage players with max karma in the previous scale can apply to play a templar right when the game opens. Do staff just not have any idea what they are doing anymore?
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Post by Azerbanjani on Apr 14, 2024 20:23:39 GMT -5
I'm honestly out of stuff to bitch about can someone promise me to imagine I post 'Arm bad' every page on here so I can stop or should I keep it up
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Patuk
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Post by Patuk on Apr 14, 2024 21:49:58 GMT -5
They just don't want to do what it takes.
They've had sorcerous dwarves zipping about the world, trolling the Known, signifying nothing. They've had sorcerous elves cook up magick death gangs in the 'rinth, doing nothing. These are the supposed best players they could ever have, the three karma squad around, and the characters given to them ended up dicking around fucking with randos. They see people playing back to back suped-up magickal fight machines going out of their way to beat randos up while toeing the line as best they could. They see the southern templarate become a haven for back-to-back sex pest templars and do absolutely nothing to stop it.
But talk to these people, tell them to knock it off, to maybe figure out something better? We don't talk to people here, sir. This is the land of the infamous 'noted'. Also it's 'on theme'. Also they technically never broke the rules, which are clearly very important because we don't store people who break no rules unless they're Bebop or Ender or Delirium or any number of people who walked away with less of a big voice really.
They could reconsider how to award their funny points and kick people visibly unable to play well down the karma ladder. They could figure out how to separate the good from the bad and not, in general, let the latter group of people get away with being a detriment.
That, of course, requires talking to people. Looking at what they do. We don't do that here. This is the land of the 'noted', the land where producers keep quite honestly and openly stating they don't actually like dealing with the community and administrators insist judging roleplay isn't in their purview.
Far easier to kick everyone back, good and bad, then pray you'll surely not misjudge people this time. That the strategy of identifying bad people and not let them near the launch codes they fucked up will figure itself out this time.
I have little faith that this will work out. They could have a hundred point karma scale and still remain as unwilling to kick people who fall upwards back down. The issue is attitude far more than it was the window dressing, at all.
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Post by Prime Minister Sinister on Apr 15, 2024 3:30:54 GMT -5
dont worry
qwerty has a plan
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mehtastic
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Post by mehtastic on Apr 15, 2024 5:35:47 GMT -5
Of all the karma criteria, I think there is one that encapsulates the attitude of the Armageddon players and staff perfectly:
RP Advanced: "Is able to roll with the punches and take the highs and lows of a character, understanding that Armageddon is not about 'winning' but rather telling a story. Does not store in the face of adversity." (emphasis mine)
Every other RP game in existence that I have ever played treats the game like a game. And if you're not having fun with a game anymore, it is well within your rights to stop playing. On Armageddon, however, playing a character in an advanced manner is not just a game. It's an obligation. If you're not having fun anymore and you decide to store your character, the staff will review the circumstances of your situation and decide if your storage is an approved storage, or simply a whiny baby storage that you initiated because you were no longer having fun getting punched in the face repeatedly. There will always be one class of players that play to win and get everything they want, and another class of players that play to tell a story and get reprimanded when they stop because they feel like no one's listening anymore.
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Post by najdorf on Apr 15, 2024 5:49:52 GMT -5
They just don't want to do what it takes. They've had sorcerous dwarves zipping about the world, trolling the Known, signifying nothing. They've had sorcerous elves cook up magick death gangs in the 'rinth, doing nothing. These are the supposed best players they could ever have, the three karma squad around, and the characters given to them ended up dicking around fucking with randos. They see people playing back to back suped-up magickal fight machines going out of their way to beat randos up while toeing the line as best they could. They see the southern templarate become a haven for back-to-back sex pest templars and do absolutely nothing to stop it. But talk to these people, tell them to knock it off, to maybe figure out something better? We don't talk to people here, sir. This is the land of the infamous 'noted'. Also it's 'on theme'. Also they technically never broke the rules, which are clearly very important because we don't store people who break no rules unless they're Bebop or Ender or Delirium or any number of people who walked away with less of a big voice really. They could reconsider how to award their funny points and kick people visibly unable to play well down the karma ladder. They could figure out how to separate the good from the bad and not, in general, let the latter group of people get away with being a detriment. That, of course, requires talking to people. Looking at what they do. We don't do that here. This is the land of the 'noted', the land where producers keep quite honestly and openly stating they don't actually like dealing with the community and administrators insist judging roleplay isn't in their purview. Far easier to kick everyone back, good and bad, then pray you'll surely not misjudge people this time. That the strategy of identifying bad people and not let them near the launch codes they fucked up will figure itself out this time. I have little faith that this will work out. They could have a hundred point karma scale and still remain as unwilling to kick people who fall upwards back down. The issue is attitude far more than it was the window dressing, at all. It's interesting to hear what you find as the problem is quite different from mine. For me the problem is simple, simple rules. within the rules: less interference IC, no interference OOC. less bureaucracy everywhere is (was) the solution to arm. Therefore, Sorcerer dwarves zipping around the known is okay for me. It only harms those that want their way is the best way. Sorcerous elves cooking up magick in death is okay for me for the same reason. They are having fun in their own way. I believe your reason for hating them is the same reason for me to hate 24 hour tavern bitches.Temperate doing things that are within the rules of the game is also fine by me. The main problem for me is some X players and Y staff constantly trying to mend the cool Z dudes to force them play their own way, and cringe when that doesn't happen, and conspire, go berserk and lobby at their best to ruin cool dude Z's armageddon life.
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Post by uncoolio on Apr 15, 2024 6:19:40 GMT -5
Karma karma karma karma karma criteriaaaa They come and go, they come and goooo
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Patuk
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Post by Patuk on Apr 15, 2024 16:51:36 GMT -5
They just don't want to do what it takes. They've had sorcerous dwarves zipping about the world, trolling the Known, signifying nothing. They've had sorcerous elves cook up magick death gangs in the 'rinth, doing nothing. These are the supposed best players they could ever have, the three karma squad around, and the characters given to them ended up dicking around fucking with randos. They see people playing back to back suped-up magickal fight machines going out of their way to beat randos up while toeing the line as best they could. They see the southern templarate become a haven for back-to-back sex pest templars and do absolutely nothing to stop it. But talk to these people, tell them to knock it off, to maybe figure out something better? We don't talk to people here, sir. This is the land of the infamous 'noted'. Also it's 'on theme'. Also they technically never broke the rules, which are clearly very important because we don't store people who break no rules unless they're Bebop or Ender or Delirium or any number of people who walked away with less of a big voice really. They could reconsider how to award their funny points and kick people visibly unable to play well down the karma ladder. They could figure out how to separate the good from the bad and not, in general, let the latter group of people get away with being a detriment. That, of course, requires talking to people. Looking at what they do. We don't do that here. This is the land of the 'noted', the land where producers keep quite honestly and openly stating they don't actually like dealing with the community and administrators insist judging roleplay isn't in their purview. Far easier to kick everyone back, good and bad, then pray you'll surely not misjudge people this time. That the strategy of identifying bad people and not let them near the launch codes they fucked up will figure itself out this time. I have little faith that this will work out. They could have a hundred point karma scale and still remain as unwilling to kick people who fall upwards back down. The issue is attitude far more than it was the window dressing, at all. It's interesting to hear what you find as the problem is quite different from mine. For me the problem is simple, simple rules. within the rules: less interference IC, no interference OOC. less bureaucracy everywhere is (was) the solution to arm. Therefore, Sorcerer dwarves zipping around the known is okay for me. It only harms those that want their way is the best way. Sorcerous elves cooking up magick in death is okay for me for the same reason. They are having fun in their own way. I believe your reason for hating them is the same reason for me to hate 24 hour tavern bitches.Temperate doing things that are within the rules of the game is also fine by me. The main problem for me is some X players and Y staff constantly trying to mend the cool Z dudes to force them play their own way, and cringe when that doesn't happen, and conspire, go berserk and lobby at their best to ruin cool dude Z's armageddon life. You disagreed with me, therefor I hate you. Everything you think is wrong. Go jump off a roof . . . Anyway, yeah. That's fair. I'd be all about simple rules if staff might abide by those. So far, they never have.
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Post by jcarter on Apr 15, 2024 19:18:36 GMT -5
wtf is with staff and their attachment to byzantine, overcomplicated systems?
i copied and paste the posts into a wordcounter. about 1800 words, equivalent to 4 pages. 4 pages written about karma policy and awarding to be able to play subguild x or y, which must be cross referenced with the associated help documents to be able to make an informed guess about what the subguild can do.
how much time and effort went into brainstorming, testing, and discussing that much less writing it? the game's presently dead and it's questionable about whether or not it'll make a come back (or even come online) and this is what's important?
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bebop
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Post by bebop on Apr 15, 2024 21:09:55 GMT -5
wtf is with staff and their attachment to byzantine, overcomplicated systems? i copied and paste the posts into a wordcounter. about 1800 words, equivalent to 4 pages. 4 pages written about karma policy and awarding to be able to play subguild x or y, which must be cross referenced with the associated help documents to be able to make an informed guess about what the subguild can do. how much time and effort went into brainstorming, testing, and discussing that much less writing it? the game's presently dead and it's questionable about whether or not it'll make a come back (or even come online) and this is what's important? They have a karma point for every remaining player. But yeah, this cracked me up. The game is currently (literally) unplayable, and they are still making the game hard to play. No one, even if you've been playing 20 years, will have max karma when the game opens and the players are just like oh-kay. Though undoubtedly players like Mansa will suddenly have max karma a month in. It's the same old shit. The Stockholm syndrome is uncanny. This reminds me of Trump saying I can do whatever they want and they'll still vote for me. There is no game. There is no max karma. And the staff who have been known to allow other staff to cheat and power game are the one with the keys to the karma roles. HMMM what could go wrong? ?
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Post by Azerbanjani on Apr 15, 2024 21:14:29 GMT -5
Controversial opinion but I think the idea of less staff influence being the best choice in regards to people flying around the known hands of winding people into holes is particularly silly when magic in this game is commonly only properly countered by:
Another twinked up sorcerer (Staff) or an animation (staff).
Grebber Joe isn't having fun when the newest Elf sorcerer, shit licker, hands of winds him into the sinkhole without so much as a >So and so yells from the north "Lick my shit"
Anyway yeah the karma system is silly
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Post by jcarter on Apr 15, 2024 22:25:11 GMT -5
i don't think halaster et al. have yet come to the realization that the old days are over. years ago they could have the illusion that people trusted staff, but it's all gone to shit because there's a place where halaster's cheating and shalooonsh's deviant kinks can get posted without them being able to actually do anything about it.
i'm sure old players will still take it, because they're used to having this slop force fed down their throat but lol if they think any mudder will be interested in migrating over to a place like that.
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Patuk
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Post by Patuk on Apr 16, 2024 0:55:15 GMT -5
i don't think halaster et al. have yet come to the realization that the old days are over That is a really succinct way of putting a lot of these changes, yeah. Well done. The dumb thread about skill levels being visible alone says plenty.
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Post by uncoolio on Apr 16, 2024 2:16:00 GMT -5
That thread made me cringe so hard. It's like when idiot parents tried to ban Magic: The Gathering from my elementary school because they wanted kids to have better morals. A wildly misguided, unintelligent concept that only legitimate morons could possibly see the sense in. "Herp derp, maybe hiding skill levels will make people stop thinking about their skills, and then they'll RP better!" No, fuckface. It'll just make it even more important to grind as much as possible, just to be on the safe side, and to learn as much as you can about skillgains because the game no longer tells you if you're getting what you wanted out of your activities. If you want people to RP better, how about improving the facilities for RP, like the unspeakably awful emote and speech code? Or the fact that you're hard-prevented from ever communicating with anyone whose playtimes don't match yours? Or maybe ensure that there are actual stories going on in the game so that players have something to channel their creativity into? But no, let's just take information away and delude ourselves into the notion that this will somehow make people RP better! It's right up there with "video games are making kids shoot up their schools."
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punished ppurg
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Post by punished ppurg on Apr 16, 2024 2:43:35 GMT -5
The "visible skill levels" thread is pretty weird. It's been difficult for me to construct all of my arguments against hiding skill levels. Since you mentioned it, I'll just fire off a couple. This is a number line representing the potential risk vs. reward factor of a skill compared to its utility in a situation. Not necessarily (apprentice) (journeyman) (adept) (master), but close enough. The color represents the player's informed ability to understand their current skill level, and the potential for failure associated with that skill level; and then make the educated decision whether to utilize that skill, to pursue the consequences of utilizing that skill (a la pickpocking the drunk AoD sergeant's khopesh blade off his belt), and so on. For skills such as bash or steal, or even hide/sneak, there is observably a culture of wanting to get those skills up in training before utilizing them "for real". Why? Because in Armageddon, a failed skill check in a "real" situation likely leads to death. Be that an overzealous Templar, or the guy you bash-failed reeling you on the ground. There are extreme consequences that come from failing those skill checks; thus, it follows that a conservative player that wants to see their character grow old hesitates and sometimes refrains from using those skills "for real" at low levels. This is fine: it's normal risk vs. reward assessment. Compare this to obfuscated skill levels. The risk vs. reward assessment is purposefully obfuscated. This means that players are disenfranchised from making the educated guess of their character's skill ability; and as a consequence, consider the following. Let A = Skills are visible or not. Let B = The player chooses wisely, or poorly, to utilize their skill. Based on the outcome of pass/fail. If A and B, then we have the current paradigm. Sneaky guys sneak up to master because they can rely on it. If A and not B, this represents a low-skilled player who chooses to "press their luck" and utilize a skill they know they are not at a reliable (green) level at. This was arguably within the player's risk vs. reward tolerance range - since he did what he did under the understanding of his skills. This is fine. If Not A and B, then the player took a "gamble" (see my advanced game sense footnote below) and it paid off, and their skill was sufficient. If Not A and Not B, then the player's gamble was not sufficient. They were not educated on the capabilities of their character and will pay a penalty for the consequence of seeking to codedly engage with a situation without the surety of their skill level. Let's talk about the Reliability box and the Hubris box. The Reliability box is where skills are high enough that a player feels like they can reliably use those skills; or at the least, they are at such a level that if the character has a critical failure while using those skills, the player accepts it as a random fluke instead of a reflection of their character's coded incompetence. When skill levels are hidden, or obfuscated, I've identified a different box lower than the Reliability threshold. Call it Hubris. This is a level where the player, without sufficient game sense, believes themselves to be within the reliability range but fall sadly short. Whenever players choose to act on their skill while in the Hubris threshold, they actively punish themselves with the assured failure of their skill endeavors. (This is assuming the converse is never true: that a player generally does not seek to fail & then die in their use of skills. While not always the case, suicidal outliers are not useful to the example.) In fact, the character themselves appears woefully incompetent and delusional for attempting to do such a thing while being so unskilled at it. The hubris box is an explicit negative in the context of shared storytelling. Not only does acting in the Hubris box directly undermine the projected competency of the character, and thereby disenfranchise the player from any sort of basic understanding of their character's reputation, or "Face"; but also acting in the Hubris box in Armageddon is a quick route towards getting your character swiftly killed and starting over from square zero. Simply put: it is a trap for people without the Armageddon gamesense necessary to glean their character's skill level regardless of obfuscation. Armageddon has perennially suffered from the criticism that it is designed to be dismissive: that is to say, the goals and aspirations of a character, the will to a character's existence in the full scope of their player's vision, is consistently sandbagged and subverted and withheld and so on. By introducing the Hubris box to the game through obfuscating skill levels, staff will reinforce the dismissive elements of the game culture by framing a way for players to self-sabotage themselves - all over the (pitiful!) hope of having a coded influence on the game, but not having the information to make the right decision on when to do so. The Hubris box is inherently destructive and fundamentally undermines the integrity of a character, in as much as it is the player's right to be informed of and adequately portray the character's capabilities so as to prevent dissonance in their roleplay. Perhaps the people that are for the Hubris box do enjoy their self-surprising dissonant portrayals of incompetency and the unsureness of their ability to vouch for themselves, as well as the harsh and swift penalties for failure - back to the drawing board. Perhaps, but I have a different idea. I think that the people that are for obfuscating skills have enough game sense in Armageddon to be able to track whether they are going to be capable of doing something, regardless of skill level display. And I think that those players with that advanced game sense are relying on the Hubris box to "artificially" cull any challengers (for the crime of attempting to codedly engage too soon, not enough grinding! Not enough hours put in!) from crowding into the realm of competency that they, arguably, wedge into. I remember when the guilds were changed to the new ones. A buddy that will go unnamed (unless he wants to name himself) sat down and tracked every miss of his weapon, every skill fail, etc. and proved through rigorous record-taking that X branches after 40 fails of Y, and so on. You need 13 misses in combat for X weapon skill to have the statistical viability of >95% to increase, you get the picture. He did that for academic reasons - we wanted to better understand the code behind the game, because being proficient in skills and code means that the creative will of the character's motivations, and the roleplay potential that the player hopes to bring to the narrative through the mechanism of their character, has a better shot at succeeding. Now consider the idea of obfuscating the display of skills: the sweaty will do this, because it gives them an explicit scope of better information over those who are not keeping rigorous notes over skill fails. Their heightened game sense will help them from falling into the Hubris trap, and as such they will not be culled, and as such they will go on to inherit the crown of competency in a filtered environment. I believe that this is the true reason behind anyone supporting obfuscating skill levels in 2024. They want others to not have enough information, to screw up; so that they have less competition. A side argument against skill level obfuscation. In the real world, humans have the ability to look at someone doing something and generally reckon their competency. Be that fighting, or painting, or cooking, or sneaking and so on. And in the perspective of that axiom of outward observation, we have the further insight to compare that against our own capabilities and what we know ourselves capable of. In a world with obfuscated skill levels, there is no such capacity for self-reflected insight of one's own competency. The only lens of gleaning competency is in challenges vs. others, others who are not sure of their own abilities either. This is generally unrealistic, and falls short of the expectation of sapience that a properly roleplayed character would have. And that's all I have to say about that.
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