eugene
Clueless newb
Posts: 83
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Post by eugene on Mar 5, 2023 15:47:30 GMT -5
Literally all we ask of players is to be nice and to be reasonable, both to other players and to staff. There are no smoky backroom conversations, no secret staff policies, none of that. Right now, staff has a very hands-off approach and we are letting players do their own thing so long as they aren't metagaming, twinking, abusing other players, or generally acting in bad faith. Come and play if you want. I check the application pool pretty much every day. I get that you're responding to a very relevant post in the thread, but I can't help but be curious about your intentions here. You've come onto the staff team of SoI 3.0, long after it's peak. Basically no one plays anymore. It doesn't seem like you're trying to get people to play outside of a milquetoast post on a somewhat obscure, niche gaming forum. You apparently have like 4 active staffers, and the rest are on hiatus because... they have lives? And you don't? I don't understand you tip-toeing around the fact that the game is dead and you're doing the bare minimum to change that. Hopefully you don't take this as a personal attack, because this is what 99% of MUDs seem to do based on my experience. They have a barely active playerbase and you always see the same excuses; it's a passion project, staff are volunteers, there's a lot going on behind-the-scenes, etc. Just look at how Ikthe runs Apocalypse. It's this weird 90s mentality of gaming that just doesn't work anymore. You shouldn't leave something up and running for 20 years and just hope someone comes along to play it and stays. At least, you shouldn't - just shut it down with some dignity and launch something better in the future if you so desire. Please don't take this as flaming, but... If you're gonna run a MUD, maybe have some balls? Be excited about your own game? Advertise it, promote it, recruit players so that you can generate conflict and storylines? I guess I'm asking for too much, especially given that I lack the brain cells to setup my own mud. I can create a world, design game systems, write you a 20-page essay with relative ease, or terminate a high-voltage transformer in real life, but as soon as I lay eyes on a mySQL database, I just want to light it on fire and throw my computer out the window. Granted, if you didn't like Songweaver/Jaunt, you'll probably just disagree with me. I'd take him over a Kite/Traithe/Halaster/Nyr/Shalooonsh, etc. any day of the week. I get that some of you are salty over the way he handled old SoI and Atonement, but again... He was a creative. He was exciting. The game was never boring with him at the helm. We know what happens when a game has no compelling, over-arching storyline. You get Armageddon, Parallel, SoI 3.0, Apocalypse, etc. Boring. You're not wrong to call a spade a spade. The game isn't doing great. I'm just pointing out that it's there and that staff isn't as nefarious as it used to be.
People who play RPIs and MUDs are the last of an ancient breed and there's only so much we can do to draw in players. Promoting the MUD too much? You're a shill. Don't promote it enough? You don't have any balls. At the end of the day, I think that SoI speaks for itself and all it needs is players. As the saying goes, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.
My issues with Songweaver are more to do with his administrative style and inappropriate behavior. For a guy who constantly bitched about how Kite et al played favorites and controlled plots too closely, I was thoroughly soured by Atonement's prologue; I remember that stupid space ship. It was a storyline on rails and only a select few got to be on the ride. As for his behavior, he is widely credited with wrecking SoI's re-launch in 2014 by strong-arming everyone with his Hillmen, whereby he and his friends would threaten to ragequit and tell everyone not to play the game if they didn't get everything that they wanted. He also threatened to stalk a staff member (Frigga), which is not okay no matter how much you dislike Frigga.
I could go on and on about Songweaver, but that's not what this thread is about. If you're not interested in SoI, then don't play it. The current staff doesn't want to direct everything, we want players to drive the game.
gringoose, I didn't mean to come at you or anything. I appreciate your candor.
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mehtastic
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Post by mehtastic on Mar 5, 2023 16:41:08 GMT -5
One random thought I'll throw out there is about conflict. I think the RPIs generally handle conflict poorly. They pit players on opposing sides, sometimes set rules for how PvP should be conducted, and then let the players go ham. When a player like Shalooonsh walks into this situation, what they end up doing is using every trick in the book to tip the scales in their favor - spreading rumors and arranging hits OOC, using harassment to discourage players from holding certain roles, to sort of shuffle the deck until the people he likes are holding the right positions. Even if all of the players are following the rules, the players that put in more time are going to eventually win out because people will gravitate toward them more and be more likely to form a bloc with them.
Conflict isn't a bad thing to have in a roleplaying game. But in many roleplaying games, the DM controls the antagonists and the players are members of a single unified party. The players and their characters may disagree on best approaches, may hold differing alignments, etc. But ultimately they share a goal and aren't going to get into the type of conflict that would force the party to cut away from that goal. There might be some exceptions but this is how the majority of TTRPGs are run.
"Murder, Corruption, Betrayal" initially drew in the type of people who like the idea of factional conflict but it also drew in people who try way too hard to be the winner of a story. If you're going to run an RPI that structures conflict like Armageddon does, you are eventually going to get a player like Shalooonsh who just fucks everyone over so that they can feel like the king of the game, or a player like [insert any of the dozen Armers that play the game like a full time job] who just monopolize everyone's IC time.
If you're going to make an RPI, consider how you might have all players on the same side. Or have player-controlled antagonist roles that are special and unique.
And don't use NPCs as a power fantasy. In fact, if you are making an RPI to live out a power fantasy you shouldn't be making one at all.
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eugene
Clueless newb
Posts: 83
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Post by eugene on Mar 5, 2023 17:15:39 GMT -5
If you're going to make an RPI, consider how you might have all players on the same side. Or have player-controlled antagonist roles that are special and unique. I agree with this sentiment very much. I've run other non-MUD roleplay communities and having everybody on the same side, with special antagonist roles, helps keep everyone on the same page.
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Post by ocotilloskewers on Mar 5, 2023 18:07:38 GMT -5
SoI always seemed pretty interesting. Maybe plug the discord invite and website here, for a start. I'd take a look at it!
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eugene
Clueless newb
Posts: 83
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Post by eugene on Mar 5, 2023 18:16:09 GMT -5
SoI always seemed pretty interesting. Maybe plug the discord invite and website here, for a start. I'd take a look at it!
The community is currently managed via the Discord, not the website. The Discord is hither: discord.gg/y2hSsWNx
The MUD connection details are middle-earth.us port 4500
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Post by lechuck on Mar 6, 2023 1:33:11 GMT -5
RPIs are kind of like the Dark Souls of the RPMUD genre. There's something satisfying about overcoming the inherent flaws of RPIs. I can't get that at all in a MUSH, those feel more like improvised theater. Is it good for a game that some random idiot might permakill your 100 day character for no reason? Of course not; but the fact that it's possible makes it much more impressive and satisfying to have a long-lived, successful character. It lends weight and importance to roleplay in a way that I've never felt in any MUSH.
I think the traditional fantasy setting has outstayed its welcome, though. There's not much that can be done with it that hasn't been done a million times, and the tropes are all so tired. No more SoI, Harshlands, etc. Even Armageddon's fairly unique setting feels worn out by now. Modern-day RP is less overdone, but that in turn has a few issues:
1) MUD combat is generally best in the form of melee, with ranged combat as a supplementary side-option. It's hard to fit melee combat into a modern setting.
2) Crafting has always been a huge part of RPIs, and unless you wanted to make a JobSim MUD set in a manufacturing business, there isn't much room for crafting in a modern setting.
3) There's not much room to actually worldbuild if the game is set in the real world. It would probably get kind of bland.
So the obvious solution to this is to make it post-apocalyptic, similar to Atonement/Parallel. That gives an excuse to have combat revolve primarily around melee as guns and ammo can be scarce or even non-existent. It allows for crafting to play an important part of the gameplay. It allows for plenty of worldbuilding as you get to come up with the reason for society's collapse, the history behind it all, etc.
I've half-assedly toyed with a game that will probably never be finished because I don't have the technical know-how.
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eugene
Clueless newb
Posts: 83
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Post by eugene on Mar 6, 2023 9:54:21 GMT -5
I agree that a modern setting would be the most appealing choice; either the 20th or 21st century in terms of technological development. You can base it on history or you could do a completely made-up setting with its own history, but no magic, and that would solve the worldbuilding problem. However, as lechuck notes, you would necessarily have to add guns, and I've never seen a MUD implement firearms very well. You also won't have as much crafting.
A "post-apocalyptic" sort of setting would probably work best where melee combat is still king and crafting is still necessary. Think Mad Max, but less guns. I also think of the setting for the game Kenshi, where there is highly advanced technology, but everyone mostly lives a hardscrabble life and melee combat is the norm. It's doable with the right lore.
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Post by gringoose on Mar 6, 2023 10:35:03 GMT -5
HellMOO did firearms mostly right and it did crafting mostly right too. I can imagine HellMOO's firearms and crafting system plus SoI's health and ranged combat system being ideal for a modern or post apocalyptic RPI.
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eugene
Clueless newb
Posts: 83
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Post by eugene on Mar 6, 2023 11:22:24 GMT -5
HellMOO did firearms mostly right and it did crafting mostly right too. I can imagine HellMOO's firearms and crafting system plus SoI's health and ranged combat system being ideal for a modern or post apocalyptic RPI. How did HellMOO handle firearms? I fully admit that I was filtered by HellMOO; I tried playing it once, didn't understand how it worked, asked for help, and felt like people were rude and unwelcoming, so I left.
I also forgot to put in my previous post that I 100% agree with lechuck about the value of the danger inherent in hard-coded RPIs vs. MUSH games. MUSH-style games are spectacular when the players are all on the same wavelength, but it does feel more like collaborative pantser writing or "improvised theater," and a lot of MUSH communities are... weird. With hard-coded combat and other systems, good roleplay stands out and can spell the difference between life or death - or, at the very least, a meaningful life or death.
There's also the issue that some people don't want to be these incredible characters, or roleplayers, or leaders. Some people just want to play the game, and that means either crafting or combat. Removing that from the experience means that a lot of people simply won't play the game.
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mehtastic
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Post by mehtastic on Mar 6, 2023 12:13:29 GMT -5
One great example of this thing I said earlier in the thread is Apoc having a karma system where you need 200 days of playtime to get to 8 karma. Karma, RPP and similar systems are bad. Don't do them.
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Post by gringoose on Mar 6, 2023 13:09:53 GMT -5
HellMOO had a large variety of firearms and craftable firearms as well as craftable ammunition, and different ammo types and different qualities of ammo. Like armor piercing and shocking ammunition, or ammo types that inflicted more bleeding. The firearms were fluid and easy to use. If you got attacked you'd automatically draw your weapon and once you emptied a magazine a new one would be automatically loaded. Firing modes like single, burst and auto were toggleable if the gun had different firing modes. The weapons could be modded with like grips or suppressors, It had a good feel to it and wasn't cumbersome like Arm's weapon system. Arm's weapon system is awful. The only thing it lacked was a range system for shooting into different rooms like SoI has. That was probably a balance choice
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eugene
Clueless newb
Posts: 83
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Post by eugene on Mar 6, 2023 13:17:07 GMT -5
One great example of this thing I said earlier in the thread is Apoc having a karma system where you need 200 days of playtime to get to 8 karma. Karma, RPP and similar systems are bad. Don't do them.
The innate issue with RPPs/karma/staff points is that, even when you have a system for players to recommend other players, you're ultimately relying upon staff to recognize excellence. On the flipside, if you put things in the hands of players (e.g. a public upvote-downvote system), it becomes an easily-gamed popularity contest. If you let the chips fall where they may and allow players to figure things out entirely by themselves, you could very well get a player in a powerful role that you absolutely do not want in a powerful role (e.g. a player who is a fucking asshole or a nightmare to deal with).
Without some sort of process in place, how do you prevent bad faith players from simply taking control or being a flagrant douchebag? It's fine if the character is evil and behaving badly with a player who is mature and cognizant of what they are doing and its effects, but - unfortunately - you do need some form of Fun Police.
I willingly accept that I may be stuck in my old way of thinking and I am very curious to hear if other games handle this in a better way.
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mehtastic
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Posts: 1,337
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Post by mehtastic on Mar 6, 2023 13:37:21 GMT -5
One great example of this thing I said earlier in the thread is Apoc having a karma system where you need 200 days of playtime to get to 8 karma. Karma, RPP and similar systems are bad. Don't do them.
The innate issue with RPPs/karma/staff points is that, even when you have a system for players to recommend other players, you're ultimately relying upon staff to recognize excellence. On the flipside, if you put things in the hands of players (e.g. a public upvote-downvote system), it becomes an easily-gamed popularity contest. If you let the chips fall where they may and allow players to figure things out entirely by themselves, you could very well get a player in a powerful role that you absolutely do not want in a powerful role (e.g. a player who is a fucking asshole or a nightmare to deal with).
Without some sort of process in place, how do you prevent bad faith players from simply taking control or being a flagrant douchebag? It's fine if the character is evil and behaving badly with a player who is mature and cognizant of what they are doing and its effects, but - unfortunately - you do need some form of Fun Police.
I willingly accept that I may be stuck in my old way of thinking and I am very curious to hear if other games handle this in a better way.
If I were crazy enough to make an RPI that attracted Armageddon players, I would probably have a queue system. You sign up to show interest in a special role. When a spot opens up, if you're next in line, staff give you a week to fill the role. Kind of like putting a book on hold at the library.
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Post by Prime Minister Sinister on Mar 6, 2023 13:44:57 GMT -5
back on the topic of firearms and firearm systems does anybody else remember absolutely ABUSING people that used will as a dump stat in atonement?
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eugene
Clueless newb
Posts: 83
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Post by eugene on Mar 6, 2023 13:53:48 GMT -5
If I were crazy enough to make an RPI that attracted Armageddon players, I would probably have a queue system. You sign up to show interest in a special role. When a spot opens up, if you're next in line, staff give you a week to fill the role. Kind of like putting a book on hold at the library. I don't mean to detract from the firearms discussion, and I apologize to Prime Minister Sinister, but how do you then prevent someone who is obviously a bad faith player from getting the role? Do you just give it to them if they're next in the queue? Don't get me wrong, I think that this is actually a very unique and good idea, but I beg the question of how you deal with a jerk.
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